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疑似港大校委錄音再流出 盧寵茂質疑陳文敏學術成就 不滿受傷未獲慰問 馬斐森多次反駁

2015/11/25 — 21:01

編按:今日傍晚,台灣網上討論區ptt,再次貼出懷疑是港大校委會9月29日討論及否決陳文敏副校長任命的會議錄音,並附上文字記錄。廖長江、盧寵茂等校委質疑陳文敏的學術成就,廖長江用google指陳文敏論文極少被搜尋,盧寵茂又不滿他當天在校委會議跌倒受傷後,陳文敏沒有慰問,反而認為校委有問題。內容符合港大學生會會長馮敬恩當日聲明的內容。

疑似是港大校長馬斐森,多次反駁盧寵茂,直指副校長職務不包括慰問受傷者。

聲帶和文字記錄轉載如下。

KK Wong: Thank you chairman. I think Professor Kwok has a point but I think academic freedom… I think here is the Council meeting on this particular issue is not the main point of concern because we are talking about is the recruitment of human resources matter. Whether or not we are appointing a person does not relate to academic freedom. I think we all respect academic freedom very well. And as our President said in the opening and remarks, right now we are really in a dilemma…: approve it, disapprove it or delay it. Every single option will have a down side. I think we have to make a choice.

廣告

黃景強:謝謝主席。我認為郭教授言之有理,但我認為學術自由…我覺得在這裡,在校務委員會討論此一特殊議題,並非主要的關注焦點,因為我們討論的是人資事務的人事案。無論我們任命某人與否,都無關學術自由。我認為我們都非常尊重學術自由。正如我們的校長在今天一開場所言,現在我們面臨進退維谷的處境:通過、否決,或是擱置,每個選擇都有缺點。我認為,我們必須作出選擇。

After reading the papers which is the first time I have ever heard of this paper, then I officially looked at the name of the candidate although I have heard about the name in the press for a long time. I do feel that we have to be very cautious in this appointment because, as some of our colleagues mentioned earlier, we have to really unite--I am talking about HKU only, not Hong Kong. We have to unite, trying to develop a strategy under the instruction of President to really foster and assure academic freedom, academic excellence and also smooth human relation. I think we have been divided too much. We need somebody to really hold us together, our chairman, our President and all our senior management team. So, on balance, without referring to particular issues, I really think that there’re controversies surrounding the candidate. So maybe it needs more cautious step to appoint a person in this post as soon as possible, but I will not support the nomination at this point.

廣告

黃景強:我是頭一次聽說有這份報告,我讀過報告之後才看到這個候選人的名字,不過我早就從報章知道這個名字了。我真的覺得我們對於這項人事任命必須非常謹慎,因為,如同一些同事早先說的,我們必須真正團結──我單指香港大學,不是整個香港。我們必須團結,試著訂出策略,在校長的指示之下,扶植、確保學術自由、卓越的學術成就、圓融的人際關係。我覺得我們被分化得太嚴重,需要有人讓我們真正團結起來,我們的主席、校長和全體資深管理團隊都要團結一心。所以,就整體而言,在不提及特定議題的情況下,我真的認為這位候選人有些爭議。所以,在任命某人接任此一職務,也許應儘速採取更謹慎的步驟,但此刻我並不支持這個提名。

Martin Liao:      … I have made some enquiries amongst the senior academics both in this University and other universities…it is more or less the same thing. I did look into the publications for the past five years myself, and also nothing as detailed and as comprehensive as Edward’s research. Perhaps just to supplement on what Edward said, I have looked into the past five years, and I was looking for citations of academic work that from the candidate, and there was none, except there was googled four times, googled… research… I mean it was google searched… it was google searched four times, and there was no citation. Thank you.

廖長江:我請教了港大與其他大學的資深學者,得到的答案相去不遠。我親自查了過去5年的學術出版品,不比Edward的研究詳細廣泛。也許只是幫Edward所說的再補充一點,我查了過去5年之中這位候選人的學術作品被引用的情形,結果沒有半次,僅被google了4次,google… 研究… 我的意思是google的搜尋,在google被搜尋了4次,而且沒有引用紀錄。謝謝。

CM Lo: My position in the Council is somewhat similar to KY. We are both academic staff elected by staff members. I fully understand that we are here at our full capacity. I am not representing the staff but I do have the perspective from the staff members. So in terms of the academic qualifications, I can make some comments and in terms of how I see him as the potential candidate for PVC staffing, remember this is related to academic staffing and resources. So that’s why I feel that I can give my opinion and thoughts about the appointment.

盧寵茂:我在校委會的職位,某種程度而言與KY(袁國勇)的類似。我跟他都是由職員推選出來的教學人員(代表)。我完全明白我們在這裡是盡心盡力的。我不代表教職員說話,但我這裡的確有些來自教職員的看法。就學術資歷而言,我可以發表幾點意見,從他(陳文敏)身為人力資源副校長候選人的層面去說明我對他的觀感。別忘了,此一職務與學術人力與資源有關。因此我覺得我能夠針對這項人事任命提供我的意見與想法。

 Firstly it is on academic achievement. Secondly, as a staff, whether I see him as a suitable person to take care of staffing and resources because there have very important implications for us, for the staff. I am a new member of the council and I was elected in May, so I have been in the Council this is the forth one. When I decided to accept the nomination, I really don’t have this item on my agenda, I am a bit regret now as if you look at the attack against Johannes Chan, I would say that my suffer in the last couple of months is a result in the participation in this Council, is perhaps even more than one. He has the right to complain about. I don’t know what I should do. I was fulfilling my duty as a University staff elected representative to take part in this council meeting and every time I remind myself this is my duty to do this for the best interest of the University.

盧寵茂:首先是學術成就方面。其次,我身為教職員一分子,不論我是否視他為合適的人選去處理本校人力資源事務—因為這對我們來說關係至為重要,我在校務委員會是新人、五月才被選出來的,我進校委會也才第四個月,我決定接受提名的時候,我的議程裡真的沒有這一項議題,我現在有點後悔了,各位可看看對於陳文敏的攻擊,我要說,過去幾個月以來我的痛苦就是因為我加入了這個委員會,或許還不只一個。陳文敏有權利去抱怨。我不知道我該怎麼辦。我是港大教職員推選的代表,我參加這場委員會會議,努力履行我的職責,而且我每每提醒自己要盡全力為港大謀求最佳福祉,這是我的職責所在。

But when I fell, all these people, I am not saying only the students, I know there are people outside the University, there is no doubt that the student lead the crowd in and I have this meeting. I have been teased in so many articles, so many pictures to say that I am an actor, 插水, alright. I really feel very bad, I didn’t complain eventually and even when I was in the hospital and I talked to the media with my occupation in charge that I will kindly accept, 我唔追究D 學生. That’s my true believe because I feel very sad if those people in the room and outside were our students, I really feel ashamed. We have not do our duty well.

盧寵茂:但當我跌倒的時候,所有人,我指的不是學生而已,我知道有些是校外人士,領頭闖進來的毫無疑問是學生,我在開會。在許許多多的文章、照片裡我受到揶揄,稱我是在做戲、插水。好吧。我覺得很難過,最後我還是沒有抱怨,就連我人在醫院、以我的職務對媒體講話的時候,我也是說,我會衷心接受,我唔追究D 學生。這是我的信念,而且讓我很難過的是,如果那天在會議室內外的人是我們的學生,我真覺得羞愧。我們沒有盡到我們的職責。

I always remind myself that what I read in the newspaper cannot be taken as the truth and I always say and tell other people that I don’t know the candidate, until I saw it on the table in this meeting. I was asked, before this meeting, in the last honorary fellowship conference. All these media come to me asking, would you accept this JC be received as the next PVC and I said come on, how can you ask me to make a conclusion before I actually conducted a study as an academic, we should not make conclusion before we looked at the facts. The facts are here and the facts are also from all the discussions we had. I really appreciated all the members and I truly believe everyone here is an independent trustee of the University, hoping for the best interest of the University. I appreciate all the thoughts and I now saying what I think base on all these facts, what is my opinion.

盧寵茂:我總是提醒自己,我從報上讀到的內容不會被視為實情,我也常對其他人說我不知道候選人,直到我在今天的會議桌上看到這個。在這場會議前,我被問及,那是上一場榮譽院士會議,所有媒體全都來問我,「你是否同意陳文敏接任下一任副校長?」,我說,得了吧,各位怎能在我作為一個學者,在做研究前就要我下結論呢?我們不該在檢視事實之前就下結論。事實就在這裡,事實也是從我們所有的討論而得來的。我十分感謝所有委員,而且我真心相信,在場的每一位都是立場超然的港大受託人、都希望為港大謀求最大福祉。對所有見解,我心懷感謝,現在我要說明的是我根據所有事實所做的思考,即我的意見。

Now, first of all I have to declare my conflict of interest, I know JC. He was in the same hostel with me in St. John’s College so we live next to another floor. We know each other and in some of the previous University activities he has expressed support for me and for my department. So I really appreciate his support for me and in fact when I heard about his nomination in the media, that he is the candidate... and in the personal point of view that he is a good guy as many of the members have said. He is a good man. He has been working for the University for so long. This is the first impression for me that I should support him.

盧寵茂:第一,我先聲明我自身的利益衝突。我認識陳文敏。他與我當年都住在聖約翰學院香港大學學生宿舍,我倆就住樓上樓下而已。我們彼此認識,在某些港大的活動之中,他曾表示支持我和我的部門,對於他的支持,我很感謝,事實上當我從媒體聽說他獲提名為副校長候選人的時候… 我個人看來他是個好人,許多校委會委員也這麼說。他在港大服務多年。我的第一印象就是,我應該支持他。

After looking at this and especially after the incident in July, I have some reservation. It is about his qualification. Professor Chan has a very detailed analysis on the publication. You can look at it, for the last 15 years, he has produced less than 5 items output including factor and article, less than 5 a year and in some years for example, in 2008, he has produced only 1 item, 2011, 1 item only. I know the number, quantity, is not the absolute measure, you have to see the quality as well.

盧寵茂:在看過這個之後,尤其是在七月那場風波之後,我持保留意見。主要是資歷問題。陳教授的學術出版有非常詳細的分析。各位可以看一看。過去15年他的學術著作發表,包括影響因子與期刊論文,一年不到5次,某幾年例如2008年只有1次、2011年只有1次。我明白數字、數量不是絕對的基準,也要看品質怎麼樣。

If I have an assistant professor with this kind of output, I will be very concerned about, I would really say, hey, how can you reach the bar of the notion with in the university, very strict criteria 4 + 4 for practical, 3 + 3 for non-practical, for promotion either up or out from an assistant professor to an associate professor. And if my assistant professor give me a CV which is 1 output per year, I would say, you are in trouble. In 6 years or in 8 years time, how many publications did you have in your CV, you can’t reach that bar. I agree with KY that the University, the USBC, he is not a case to promotion and I doubt whether the same applies to the Law faculty. I believe it should, you still have to same sort of criteria.

盧寵茂:假如我的助理教授學術發表數量也像這樣子,我會非常擔心,我會說,你要如何達到校方升等的標準?標準很嚴格的,實務領域四加四(指兩份四年制合約,期內表現優良,可於八年,即四年加四年後轉長約),非實務要三加三(指兩份三年制合約,期內表現優良,可於六年,即三年加三年後轉長約),不是從助理教授升為副教授,就是降等。假如我的助理教授給我的履歷表寫著一年發表一次學術著作,我會說,「你有麻煩了」。在六年或八年期間,你的履歷記載了多少學術出版品,你達不到那個標準的。我同意袁國勇的意見,也就是在香港大學,USBC,他並不是升等的人選,而且我懷疑本校法律學院是否也持同樣標準。我認為應當如此,必須用同一套標準。

Professor Chan is actually the best person here as an academic. So I would like to start a question whether he has the academic qualifications to take up this position especially he will be looking at staffing, looking at promotion and if you are not a Phd yourself how can you supervise people. The same as if you are not academically of certain standing. How can you say, hey, you are not well presented. The candidate would really say, look at your CV, your CV is not as good as mine. How can you turn down an application, if you don’t have the kind of quality?

盧寵茂:以學者而言,陳教授的確是這裡最頂尖的。所以我想提一個問題:他是否具備接任此一職務的學術資歷?尤其他要審查人事,審查升等,而且,如果你自己沒有博士學位,你要如何督導人事?如果你在學術上沒有相當地位,也會有同樣的問題。你怎能說「你的表現不是很好」,(等待升等的)候選人會說「看看你的履歷,你的履歷還不如我的好」。如果你不具備某種學術地位,你要如何拒絕申請?

So this is my feeling when I saw this CV and reminded me of quality and whether he is qualified as a PVC. Perhaps the VC may not be aware of this but certainly I think after this point was mentioned, I hope as the search committee chairman, you would consider whether, you know, you said just now you were not aware of this and you take it for granted since he has been promoted to a professor and since he is appointed as a dean, he must qualify. I don’t feel that should be some trivial correlation

盧寵茂:我看到這份履歷的時候,我的感受就是這樣的,讓我想到學術地位,還有他能否勝任副校長的職務。或許校長無法藉由這份履歷清楚了解這一點,但我認為這一點提出來之後就很確定了,我希望,您身為物色委員會的主席,會仔細考慮此事。剛才您說了,您並不清楚此事,而且,既然他已經獲得升等為教授、獲派為學院院長,您也覺得,他擔任副校長一職也是理所當然。我不覺得這是沒什麼關係的小事。

PM: ……there were 4 academic members on the search committee. I was qualified to make academic judgments. I have a lot of experience of making these judgments. There were 3 other academic members of the committee. So there were 4 ppl, 3 of them are not here to represent their views, so my job as a chairman is to represent their views. Academic credentials were considered, and were considered suitable. Council members may disagree. But I am not going to go back from the judgement made by the search committee.

馬斐森:…物色委員會有四名學者。我有資格作出學術判斷。我有豐富的經驗去做這類判斷,委員會還有三名學術人士,所以一共四人,今天另外三人不在場、無法表達看法。我身為主席的職責是表達他們的觀點。學歷經過審酌了,是合宜的。校委會成員可能不同意。但是,我不會不履行物色委員會的決定。

As to a comment to the number of papers he published, I think it’s utterly irrelevant. There’s no job description that says you could have published certain number of papers or you’re not qualified for this role. The… number of papers published that not enough quality and you can’t transfer from medicine into law because the publication requirement is different. So frankly the number of paper he published in the last 15 years (…)

馬斐森:至於針對他發表過幾篇論文的評論,我認為完全無關宏旨。職務說明並沒有提到要求發表過多少論文、否則就沒資格擔任這項職務。…發表論文數量不夠資格,這方面醫學和法律不能相比,因為兩者對發表論文的要求是不同的。所以坦白說,過去15年他發表過多少論文…

CM Lo: Well that’s the qualification part… my feeling about reading his CV...the second part is related to whether he's suitable for this position, because he's going to take care of academic staffing. And my expectation for such person has to be very impartial. I wouldn't have problem with political approval, alright? You can apply to your…political meeting or whatever. I do have many staffs who take part in occupy central. They are so yellow, and I've expressed my position and my opinion that I did not support occupy central. I don't have a problem in the hospital. Because they work in hospital, political opinion does not affect their clinical service, and never change their duty just because they support occupy central. That should not affect your work in the university and the hospital.

盧寵茂:那是資格方面…看他的履歷,我感覺…第二部分是關於他是否適合這個職務。由於這個職務掌管學術領域的人事,我對於接任者的期許是:他必須非常公正無私。我沒有政治認同的問題,好嗎?你可以參加政治…集會或任何場合。我有許多工作同仁參加了佔領中環行動,他們非常黃(黃絲帶),我也曾表達我不支持佔領中環的立場與意見。我在醫院裡沒遇到任何問題,因為,他們在醫院是工作,政治意見不影響臨床服務,他們的職責也絕不因為支持佔領中環而改變。那不應該影響你在大學和醫院的工作。

But on that event, on that night that we have been in the storm of council meeting and subsequently my injury. And after the event, I really didn't see him showing any sympathy for the council members, and particular… I...myself…. I am a staff elected by the all the other staff to take part, and I sustained and injured. From all the opinion that he has expressed, actually he's still putting the blame on the council, he has never, I'm not saying I need his sympathy. But as a staff, I really feel if you are PVC (staffing) and if a staff member had an injury during an event like this, should you just keep on saying it's the council's fault. That means it's my fault as well? So in a way he's telling the public, he's speaking out in public, including his《香港家書》, that the fault remains in the council...in a way…for the suffering I encountered. That is my concern, and as I said before, I came to this meeting when I know he’s a potential candidate. I am very supportive initially, but with this and now looking his CV and what happened and his way of handling it... I really need to think twice before considering him as a suitable person for this position, and I wonder, I know the recommendation by the search committee was actually made a while ago, was actually written in July... With that kind of incidents and the way that this candidate has expressed his opinion in public, would the search committee still consider that kind of person is suitable to handle academic staffing and resource? Because as a staff, I am seriously concerned, even though I know I am here not representing the staff.

盧寵茂:但在那次事件之中,那一夜我們身處於校委會議風暴,緊接著我受傷了,事件過後,我沒有看到他對校委會成員表達任何慰問之意,尤其…我…我本人…。我是由全體教職員選出來參與校委會的一員,我承擔了,我也受傷了。從他所表達的所有意見來看,事實上他是在怪罪校委會,他從不曾……我不是說我需要他的慰問,但我也是教職員的一分子,我真的覺得,如果他是人力資源副校長,有教職員在這樣的事件中受傷,難道他應該一直說這是校委會的錯嗎?意思是我也有錯?在某種程度上,他這是在告訴社會大眾,而且是直接了當地告訴大眾,包括他的《香港家書》也是,他宣稱這依舊是校委會的錯…在某種程度…我所遭遇的痛苦…..。這是我憂心之處,而且,如同我之前所說,我來參加這個委員會會議的時候,我知道他是可能的候選人。我一開始非常支持。但因為那場事件,再加上現在看到他的履歷和這些事情,還有他處理事件的方式… 我有疑慮,而且我真的必須三思他是否適合這個職務。我知道,物色委員會已經推薦他好一陣子,事實上7月就已有書面文件……。考量這種事件與這位候選人公開表達意見的方式,物色委員會是否仍認為這樣的人適合掌理學術人力資源?因為,身為教職員,我對此非常憂心,雖然我知道我在這裡並不代表教職員。

CH: The recommendation of search committee was made in July (...) sorry in May. So anything after that was not included.

委員會的推薦是在7月,抱歉,在5月,所以任何之後的事件都不在考慮之列。

CM Lo: … If that is the case. Can I ask the chairman of the search committee, would you take into account of what happened afterwards, that this candidate has done this (VC: done what?), openly breached the confidentiality calling himself a candidate, and then was complaining that the council has not doing the right thing? and despite the fact that there are council members including the staff member who suffer injury during that event, he has expressed no concern whatsoever, to the safety of the council and staff members. 

盧寵茂:如果是這樣,我能否請問物色委員會主席,你會把之後發生的事列入考慮?基於這名候選人做了這樣的事(校長:做了什麼事?),他公開自稱候選人,違反保密原則,然後抱怨校委會沒有做正確的事。還有,儘管校委會成員包括教職員在事件中受傷,他也對校委會及教職員的安全不表示關心。

And in contrast, he put the blame on the council members and including me as a staff member. I am really terrified that someone with this kind of... I don't want to extrapolate but I felt the threat is someone ... i would say he's putting his political intonation into the university. Because at a ... political opinion he may think that I am here to represent CY. I can tell you I am not a 梁粉. I came in with support of the staff members. I've never talked to CY. CY has never talked to me about this. But it seems that everybody there including Johannes Chan has labelled..Whatever I suffer, I deserve it.

盧寵茂:相反地,他怪罪校委會成員包括我這名職員。我對於有人以這種…感到驚恐,我不想亂猜但我覺得真正的威脅是有人… 我要說的是他把他的政治論調帶進大學,因為… 政治意見,他可能認為我在這裡代表梁振英,我可以告訴你我不是梁粉。我是因為其他職員的支持而在這裡。我從未和梁振英談過。梁振英從未與我談過這件事。但看起來每個人,包括陳文敏都已(對我)貼標籤。無論我遭遇到什麼都是我活該

PM: So my comment on that is I think you’ve taken things very personally, and I think we should keep things to factual discussion, and the purpose of the candidate. There’s no requirement in the job description for the candidate to express sympathy otherwise on anybody who is injured. I think you are putting post-event facts into this particular context, so the … I can’t speak for the Search Committee, Search Committee hasn’t met since 27 May, I can only speak as a Council Member, the events that happened since the Search Committee’s paper was written on 27 May, there have been many things written and said, a lot of opinions, I prefer to stick to the facts. And the facts that the Committee has to consider were the qualification and suitability for the post. I’ve already said at the start of the meeting that it’s my view that whilst none of the outcomes are attractive, to my mind, there will be less damage done for the University by the acception of the nomination ...

馬斐森:我覺得你把事情看成是針對個人,我認為我們應該根據事實和候選人議題討論。職務說明中並不要求候選人對任何傷者表達慰問。我認為你將(選定候選人)事後的事件置入特定情境中,所以… 我不能代表物色委員會發言,物色委員會在5月27日後也未再開會,我只能以一個校委會成員的身分發言,在5月27日物色委員會報告寫定後,很多被書寫與談論的意見,我傾向緊跟事實。委員會必須考慮的事項是資格及是否適任這個職位。我在會議開始時已經說了,我的看法是,既然最後的結果都不會受歡迎,我心裡覺得,接受提名對學校造成的傷害會比較小…

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