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【疑似港大錄音再三流出】商追究衝擊校委會學生 李國章:我可以告港大告學生

2015/11/26 — 19:59

資料圖片:李國章

資料圖片:李國章

編按:台灣網上討論區ptt,今日傍晚連續第二天流出懷疑是港大校委會會議錄音,校委討論追究學生在7月28日衝擊校委會議事件。文字記錄全文如下。

 

Steven J. Cannon: … We’ve got photographic evidence that backs a lot of this up, we’ve reviewed the videos… uh… there are a whole series of disturbing scenes… uh… we have been looking at what legal options might be available to us. Uh…

康諾恩:我們有照片為證,是很有力的證明,我們也看過影像……裡面有一連串的滋事場面……我們也正研究可為我們所用的法律意見……。

廣告

Arthur Li Can I just ask is it possible from your system that we can identify the students involved?

廣告

李國章:我想問,從你們的系統,我們有可能指認出參與事件的學生嗎?

 

Steven J. Cannon: Certainly we can identify individuals… we can identify the presence of individuals. It’s what those individuals were doing. We believe that the number of potential offenses, disorder in public places, unlawful assembly, assault, false imprisonment, and nuisance committed in public places were all areas that if we chose collectively or individuals chose to pursue … that would be……

康諾恩:當然可以……我們能指認出誰在現場做了什麼事。我們認為,潛在的眾多罪行、包括擾亂公共場合秩序、非法集會、攻擊、非法拘禁,還有公眾場所行為不檢等,看我們要針對集體或個人處理。

 

Arthur Li: So you have evidence…

李國章:所以你有證據…

 

Steven J. Cannon: … we could gather evidence around that and we would look to do that. But at the moment we are not… we haven’t sought to do that. We are looking, really to get… sound, the …experiences… but we do have written evidence from our people. We have video and photographic evidence. We have video evidence.

康諾恩:我們可以全面收集證據,我們有可能這麼做。但是此時此刻我們並未……我們還沒有採取行動。我們正尋找…錄音…感受…,然而我們的人的確握有書面證據。我們有照片證據,我們有影像證據。

 

Chairman: Leonie?

主席:紀文鳳?

 

Leonie Ki: OK. I’d like to bring… uh chairman, I’d like to bring the situation to inform the council meeting of this on July the 28th, because I heard and it was possibly reported in the newspaper on the 27 or the 26 of July, that the student union chairman of HKU has announced that, if our re…,  their request was not mentioned, they would barge into the senate room.

紀文鳳:好的,主席,我想報告的是……我想提一個7月28日的狀況來提醒校委會,因為我聽說,香港大學學生會會長宣稱,如果不陳述他們的要求,學生就要衝入會議室,這在7月27日或者26日的報紙可能有報導。

 

So that’s why I tried talk to Dr. Chau, Dr. Albert Chau, and I said we should not let the students come into the senate room because it is really a sacred place for Hong Kong U, and besides, I also sent you this email that the safety and dignity of the council members should be guaranteed as well as the image of the university.

紀文鳳:所以我找了周博士,也就是周偉立博士,討論此事。我說,我們不該讓學生進入會議室,因為,這對香港大學而言是神聖的場所,再說,我也寄了這封電郵給主席,明白告知校委會成員的人身安全與尊嚴應受保障,港大的形象亦應受保障。

 

But then Albert told me not to worry, because our students are very obedient,very good. And I keep reminding him of the incidents on 818 and 812, is, uh,

the reverse, you know, because we also have other students from otheruniversities.

紀文鳳:但周博士要我別擔心,因為我們的學生很守規矩,很好。我還一直提醒他,818事件與812事件恰恰相反,因為現場還有其他大學的學生。

 

Having said that, uh, it is, uh, because I… my request is, because they already warned us of barging into the senate, I wonder why we still let them come into the 10th floor, because, they already give us a warning, we should not allow them to come onto the 10th floor. And I think that we, instead of coming here, we should be still having our meeting over there, instead of trying to be scared, because what we should do is warned the students or whatever downstairs.

紀文鳳:會這樣說,嗯,是因為,我要求的是,因為他們已經警告我們要衝入會議室,我懷疑為什麼我們仍讓他們上來10樓,因為他們已經警告,我們不應該讓他們上來10樓,我認為仍該在那裡開會,而不是來到這裡,而不是被他們嚇著,因為我們應該做的是警告學生,以及樓下發生的事。

 

And I also heard later on, that from the pan-democrats, they said that 13 people, the alumni, the Legco, they too have an agreement to… stay downstairs, whereas… students go upstairs. So then, it’s so chaotic because it is really like what Steve has reported, is organized and is also orchestrated. And I think we should be protected because we already heard of this alert, and we should take warning, you know.

紀文鳳:後來我也從泛民那裡聽說,校友與立法會十三人小組是同意留在樓下的,結果卻是學生衝了上來。然後場面大亂,真的就如同Steve所報告,學生的行動是有組織的,是策畫好的。而且我認為,我們應該受到保護,因為我們已經收到這個警告了,我們應該保持警戒。

 

Chairman: Steve, I would answer several questions after you tell us why students barged …up to the 10th floor?

主席:Steve,請你先告訴我們,學生為什麼會衝進十樓,之後我再答覆幾個問題。

 

Steven J. Cannon: We were following essentially the… 818 guidance and protocols that have been established… and there have been several protocols,I agree that there had been a threat to enter the council. (Leonie Ki: it’s a threat announced…) There had been several protests on, several council meetings running up to, to where we have quite a significant number of people on the 10th floor.

康諾恩:原則上我們遵照的是818事件的指導準則與已制定的禮儀規範……有好幾項禮儀規範,我同意曾收到要衝進校委會的威脅…(紀文鳳:那是…公開宣布的威脅…)已經有好幾場抗爭行動了…有好幾場校務委員會會議都在十樓,與會人數很多。

 

I think that we had a strong sense that the students would enter the council chamber. I think what we expected we also had a strong sense that would happen at the end, towards the end of the meeting after the vote on a particular…uh, uh, item was taken. But the view was that they would enter in a reasonable manner and that the chairman would adjourn the meeting and general meeting (Chairman: if they don’t leave) if they don’t leave, we

would appeal to them to leave, and the chairman would adjourn the meeting and then there would be an element of calm. What we didn’t expect was he level of verbal abuse and physical abuse that took place and that’s what we hadn’t anticipated.

康諾恩:我認為,當時我們都強烈意識到學生將會進入會議室。我們預期也強烈意識到,在我們投票選出特定對象之後,或者接近投票結束的時候,學生就會衝進來了。我們認為學生會用理智的態度進入會議室,然後主席會宣布各委員會會議與大會休會…(主席:如果他們不離開的話…)如果學生不離場,我們會呼籲學生離場,主席就會宣布休會,那麼場面就會平靜下來。我們沒有預料到的是當天言語辱罵、肢體衝撞的程度,實在出乎我們的意料。

 

And that suggests to us that we need to revisit the original agreement if you like, which wasn’t an agreement, the original protocol with our students about allowing zone demonstration areas, about close access to the council members which came out of the 818 incident.

康諾恩:這提醒了我們—如果你們同意的話—我們得重新審視818事件後,我們跟學生訂定的原本的協議,其實那不是協議而是禮儀,包括可以在哪裡示威、跟校務委員保持何種距離等。

 

Chairman: I don't mean to intervene… this moment, first of all, we are now facing three problems, first of all is improving our so called security safety for… visit the council meetings. Going back to a more decent meeting place, as I mentioned at the start, this is… a makeshift issue, this university …  a decent meeting place, for council, senate, and Court … EVP… service unit… in this week, to seek out of a possible way to have a more decent meeting.

主席:我無意打斷……。首先,我們眼前有三個難題,第一是要改善我們對於…參訪與委員會開會的保安措施。我開頭就說了,回去更好的地點開會一事,這只是權宜之計,這所大學沒有像樣的開會場所,供校委會、教委會、校董會…、副校長等等之用,應該找出一個可能的方式,讓我們可以舉行更體面的會議。

 

One of the things that I am suggesting, is that, still … council, uh, senate chamber, but we want to make sure that there’s another door that members can leave should the only existing door be barricaded and somebody toss a firebomb or something on it……. I’m very, very strong that ... defend … we need a proper meeting place and not just a makeshift thing.

主席:我的建議之一就是,因為…會議室,我們要確保有另一道門可供委員離場,假使唯一一道可用的門被堵住了,而且有人丟燃燒彈之類的東西進來……我鄭重表示我們需要一個合適的開會場所,而非只是找個地方湊合著用。

 

Point number two is that the whole movement was based on the protocol decided on… obviously… said that needs to be changed as a result of this one 

incident. The reason that is safety and security in… to come. I want to bring up two points. One is that there are evidence and we have actually received complaints that students eventually involved in barging into the senate chamber… students while down in the car park, etc. or others… people from outside… central or other… from both side… there was a lot of controversies. Now we’ve identified students that…and take actions… would be an issue perhaps the Vice Chancellor… accept…

主席:第二個重點是,整個抗議活動是基於(818事件之後的)禮儀規範而進行,…說了,在這次事件之後,這套規範需要改變。原因在於安全與防護。我有兩件事要講:第一,證據是有的,而且我們的確收到投訴指稱有學生涉及闖入會議室的事件…學生在停車場等地,其他人則是… 有很多爭議。現在我們已經認出學生…採取行動…這會是一個問題,也許校長…接受…

 

Arthur Li: That would be against one student…

李國章:那不就只針對某個學生了……

 

Chairman: Because by protocol…

主席:基於禮儀規範……

 

Arthur Li: There still one student…

李國章:還有一個學生…

 

Chairman: This is , this is just the starting point … somebody complained

one student…

主席:這只是開端……有人投訴,有一名學生……

 

Arthur Li: I mean, I mean, I mean…I don’t know the name of the student…

李國章:我的意思是,我不知道那個學生的姓名……

 

Chairman: I would, I would advise…

主席:我會建議……

 

Arthur Li: May I, may I, may I suggest this, chairman, let this be passed to the meeting…, to identify the students involved to face disciplinary actions, has to report back to the council(?)… for more actions… (Chairman: … accepting reporting… to see if we agree with the actions or not…because I ’m … giving a very clear message… I… If we do not do it properly, any council member can take civil actions against the students, against this council, OK?

李國章:可否容我提議,主席,把這件事移交給…會議去找出涉及此事的學生,讓涉及此事的學生面對處分,而且必須向委員會回報… 採取更多行動… (主席:… 接受報告…)… 以了解我們是否同意採取行動… 因為我表達的意思很明確,如果我們的做法不恰當,任何一個校委會委員都可以針對學生、針對校委會提出民事訴訟。懂嗎?

 

Because you are not protecting the council member…

因為你沒有保護校委會委員......

 

Chairman: That is what I am…

主席:這就是我所……

 

Arthur Li: I can take civil actions against University of Hong Kong. I can take criminal actions against the students but I can also……

李國章:我可以對香港大學提出民事訴訟,我可以對學生提出刑事訴訟,但我也可以……

 

Chairman: I am not disagreeing… What I’m saying is that… There is already a receipt of one complaint of…

主席:我不是不同意……我要講的是……我們已經收到一則投訴了……

 

Arthur Li: Yeah I don’t want to…

李國章:我不想…

 

Chairman:…one beginning…

主席:……開始……

 

Arthur Li: Yeah but it’s not fair to single out one student……

李國章:是,但只針對單一學生並不公平……

 

Chairman: Next thing…would be… all over the facebook… identify other

students…

主席:下一步會是……臉書全面……找出其他學生……

 

Arthur Li: Have we accepted.. the…report?

李國章:我們是否已經接受…報告?

 

Chairman: Yes

主席:是的

 

Arthur Li:…and then ask… to deal with the consequences thereof…

李國章:而且還要面對結果?

 

Chairman: Oh that’s basically what it is.

主席:原則上是如此。

 

Steven J. Cannon: The issue is yet between student discipline and general public offence, if you like. The student discipline under the ordinance of statute that students dedicated… a complaint has to be raised within twenty-eight days of an incident, and it has to be specific… and we have had one complaint and that goes to the Vice-Chancellor, and then....

康諾恩:你們大概同意,問題大概是介乎學生行動和妨礙公安罪兩者之間,大學條例和大學的規程中有關學生紀律的條款訂明…投訴必須在事件發生二十八天之內提出,且內容要具體明確……我們已經收到一則投訴,也已送交校長了,接下來……

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